Exclusive interview with the deputy prime minister and foreign minister

Gul said Turkey understands that because of the uncertainty brought about with the war, some developments may evolve out of control, but warned that "If these out of control developments could not be corrected or there is a disability to correct these, then we would not hesitate to undertake whatever we are required to do. Everyone knows this. The world knows this. And the people in northern Iraq know this better than anyone else."

The foreign minister said Turkey was not a country which could be tested with fait accompli. "No one can stage a fait accompli for a country like Turkey. Everyone must know this. Everyone who might have the intention of making some gains by staging a fait accompli must know that no fait accompli may be staged against Turkey. Turkey shall definitely not allow such things," he said.

Upset with the occupation of Kirkuk by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan peshmergas, Gul said Turkey was now following the developments and will "look at the end result."

The PUK peshmergas were withdrawn from Kirkuk Friday but the news of the withdrawal coincided with reports Mousul was captured and a large group of peshmergas, together with a small contingent of U.S. troops, entered the city.

Turkey has told the United States and Iraqi Kurds in talks over the past several months that if the cities were occupied by the peshmergas and if civilian movements towards the cities in a manner that could change the demographic situation was allowed, it would not hesitate from sending its troops into northern Iraq.

Gul, talking with the TDN moments before he attended a key policy-making meeting with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Chief of General Staff Gen. Hilmi Ozkok on northern Iraq situation, did not rule out a possible incursion of the Turkish army into northern Iraq.

"We will look whether there is compliance with the pledges made to Turkey or a fait accompli is wanted to be implemented within a span of time. For sure, we have plans and programs ready for any eventuality. These are issues unfolding on a daily and momentary basis. We are closely following the developments and let everybody know that when it is required we shall definitely not hesitate from taking any required decision. Right from the beginning we have said Inshallah, there won’t be a need for such a decision and to take such a step, but if and when such a need arises, the moment we see the pledges and assurances made to Turkey were not serving any purpose, we shall evaluate the evolvement of the developments and won’t hesitate from taking the appropriate decisions accordingly. There is no question on this," he said.

Gul warned that withdrawal of peshmergas from the cities won’t be enough, and underlined that any move aimed at changing the demography of the cities, would be unwelcome.

"It is out of the question for Turkey to accept any planned move in the region aimed at changing the demography of the area. Everything must evolve in its natural course. An attempt to benefit from the atmosphere of disorder and confusion and to change the demography of the area with armed or unarmed population movements. We have said that we won’t allow such moves and we are determined not to allow such moves. Everyone must know this. We shall not accept such moves with ulterior motives designed to serve some future aims," he warned.

Gul also denied claims that the government has left some key decisions to the military. He said the political will was with the government and all through the Iraq war process, the military respected government decisions without any hesitation.

"The political will is with the government. All institutions of the Turkish state are abiding without any hesitation with the political will expressed by the government. For sure, the government, in making those decisions has been in consultations with various bodies of the state. Of course in such kind of an atmosphere that we are in now, there could be nothing normal than the government consulting the military in making its decisions," he said.

Gul added that "as it ought to be in any democratic country", everything has been progressing according to democratic principles. He said in this process, "I have seen the commitment of the military to democracy, respect to the decisions of the government. In consultations with them, they have laid down clearly with a great sense of responsibility their views, considerations and advise to the government."

Here is the full text of the interview with Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul:

TDN – Despite all the pledges made to Turkey, now there is a fait accompli in northern Iraq. Turkey was greatly irritated with this development and, after talks with the United States, Ankara was told that American troops would be deployed in Kirkuk and other places in the region, Iraqi Kurdish peshmergas would be withdrawn from Kirkuk and a situation conforming with the established understanding would be created in the area. Is Turkey satisfied with this development? Is it satisfied with the new pledges it has received? Is Turkey considering, in any way, to send its troops into northern Iraq?

GUL – All these largely depend on how the established understandings would be applied and what developments will take place. We cannot still say, "We are satisfied… Everything is all right." A process is working. We will follow the developments and look at the end results. We will look at whether there is compliance with the pledges made to Turkey or a fait accompli is wanted to be implemented within a span of time. For sure, we have plans and programs ready for any eventuality. These are issues unfolding on a daily and momentary basis. We are closely following the developments and will let everybody know that, when it is required, we shall definitely not hesitate from taking any required decision. Right from the beginning we have said Inshallah, there won’t be a need for such a decision and to take such a step, but if and when such a need arises, the moment we see the pledges and assurances made to Turkey were not serving any purpose, we shall evaluate the evolvement of the developments and won’t hesitate from taking the appropriate decisions accordingly. There is no question on this.

TDN – With the occupation of Kirkuk, were the pledges to Turkey disrespected?

GUL – This morning (yesterday), everything will become clear.

TDN – Is there disillusionment in Ankara?

GUL – One should not approach things in that fashion… One should also take into consideration the uncertainty brought about by the war atmosphere. Some things may evolve out of control but if these out of control developments could not be corrected or there is a disability to correct these, then we would not hesitate to undertake whatever we are required to do. Everyone knows this. The world knows this. And the people in northern Iraq know this better than anyone else. No one can stage a fait accompli for a country like Turkey. Everyone must know this. Everyone who might have the intention of making some gains by staging a fait accompli must know that no fait accompli may be staged against Turkey. Turkey shall definitely not allow such things.

TDN – We are now talking about withdrawal of peshmergas and replacement of peshmergas by American troops but, in the meantime, there are reports of civilian Kurdish movement into the area. Kurds and even some Turkomans are reportedly evacuating their villages and heading into the area. There is an atmosphere of complete confusion, an atmosphere of chaos. Turkey was considering this as also unacceptable. Turkey was having such concerns anyhow.

GUL – We are concerned of course. It is out of the question for Turkey to accept any planned move in the region aimed at changing the demography of the area. Everything must evolve in its natural course. An attempt to benefit from the atmosphere of disorder and confusion and to change the demography of the area with armed or unarmed population movements. We have said that we won’t allow such moves and we are determined not to allow such moves. Everyone must know this. We shall not accept such moves with ulterior motives designed to serve some future aims.

TDN – It is seen that in all cities Americans have entered there is an atmosphere of power-vacuum. This power-vacuum is being demonstrated best with the widespread looting incidents. If this power-vacuum is spread to cover northern Iraq also, is Turkey worried of a possible surge of clandestine Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) terrorist activity? Are you raising this issue with the Americans and asking them how they are going to deal with a possible surge in PKK terrorism at a time when they cannot control the ordinary man in the street?

GUL – These all have been asked and were made clear that if and when we see any negative development in this area, we shall undertake whatever action is required. These and such issues have all been discussed in the past and our clear position was explained in clear terms. Therefore, our position and resolve on this issue must be known by all.

TDN – In some reports there have been claims that the government has been talking about Turkey’s sensitivity regarding a possible refugee movement, occupation of Kirkuk, Erbil and Mosul by Iraqi Kurdish factions but ignoring to mention terror in listing the possible Turkish entry into northern Iraq and some civilian and military top bureaucrats were unhappy with this.

GUL – That’s out of the question. That’s our top priority. We have made it clear on and again on many occasions that such a development would never be allowed or tolerated. What’s the meaning of that? Such a thing is out of the question.

TDN – Again, within the same framework, there have been reports in some foreign media that the government was new, inexperienced and even incapable and thus was leaving some difficult decisions to the military. Is there full coordination with the military?

GUL – Out of the question… All these are out of the question. These are products of their own exercises. It has become some sort of a fashion to talk of such things in order to criticize the government. The political will is with the government. All institutions of the Turkish state are abiding without any hesitation with the political will expressed by the government. For sure, the government, in making those decisions, has been in consultations with various bodies of the state. Of course in such kind of an atmosphere that we are in now, there could be nothing normal than the government consulting the military in making its decisions.

TDN – Indeed in latest statements to the press by the military, it was underlined that political decision rested with the government…

GUL – Throughout this process, as it ought to be in any democratic country, everything has been progressing according to democratic principles. I have seen this. Therefore, in this process, I have seen the commitment of the military to democracy and respect to the decisions of the government. In consultations with them, they have laid down clearly with a great sense of responsibility their views, considerations and advice to the government.

TDN – In foreign reports, in reports of foreign news agencies, it is being reported that Turkey was scared that if Kurds get hold of the oil rich regions of Iraq they would become rich and acquire added strength that would enable them establish a Kurdish state. Is this the underlying reason of Turkey’s concerns?

GUL – To start with, we believe there is a consensus for the maintenance of the territorial and national integrity of Iraq and on the notion that the riches of the country belonged to the entire people of Iraq. We do not believe there will be a change in that.

Of course, our concerns are not limited with these alone. We are concerned with the possibility of killings, looting and the danger of this reaching the dimension of massacre. This is very important.

TDN – Defense of the Turkoman people there…

GUL – That’s what I am trying to stress. We cannot accept change of demographic composition of the region by force, establishment of a new situation by force, any move to scare Turkomans to migrate from the area and thus to change the demography of the region are not developments that we cannot allow. We have said all these…

TDN – Under present conditions, do you intend to go ahead with the plans of visiting Syria?

GUL – Well, it all depends to the developments. How things will evolve will shape it. If an emergency situation won’t arise, or let me put it in more clear terms, if the issues at hand now could be resolved and placed on a right track, then I may go… But if the present situation continues, I may postpone. This will become clear soon.

TDN – Turkey first invited the Iranian foreign minister to Ankara and now you are planning to go to Syria… These two countries were being accused by the United States of helping out Iraq. Most recently, the U.S. accused Syria of letting members of Iraqi leadership into the country and hide there. In view of this attitude of the U.S., don’t you thing you are contradicting the U.S.?

GUL – Let me provide a clarification on this. Our position on the Iraqi crisis is a very clear one. What is it? We have acted within the framework of a set of principles and we were with the U.S. The level of Turkish togetherness with the U.S. was determined by the Turkish Parliament. The Parliament converted a wide cooperation into a limited one. Therefore, our position on this issue is a very clear one. Our position towards the former regime of Iraq, or to the Saddam regime of Iraq, was known by everyone.

Now, Syria and Iran are our two neighbors. Our relations with our neighbors, our bilateral relations are separate. There is no common approach of the three countries towards Iraq. Such a trilateral thing is out of the question. Each country has its own approach. These ties are bilateral, first of all; secondly, we are both neighboring countries of Iraq and it is only normal for us to come together on a bilateral basis and talk on the developments. But there is no trilateral platform, I want to underline this. The proposal and will extended to us was within that framework — as you know there was such a mechanism and we were asked to revive that framework — but we said we did not want to have such a platform but to continue dialogue on a bilateral basis. We found that more appropriate. Within that framework, the Iranian foreign minister came to Turkey and I was invited by the Syrian foreign minister to visit that country.

There is nothing against the U.S. Or there is no move for the establishment of a trilateral Iraqi policy.

TDN – The British are in contact with the Syrians also, but their going there aims at to help out the coalition and bridge to some extend the rift between the U.S. and Syria. Does Turkey have any such intention?

GUL – Turkey could talk in this manner as well. It can express things that it considered right and can give friendly advice.

TDN – Seeing the latest developments, when you look back, do you sometimes wish the second authorization motion accepted by Parliament?

GUL – I do not think such an approach is right. I do not think it’s right because we as the government have undertaken our responsibly within the framework of a policy built on what we considered right, and eventually sent to Parliament the authorization motion. Parliament accepted this in a different form. These are decisions taken by the institutions of Turkey. We have seen has democracy functioned. Thus, now indulging in considerations such as had this did not happen this would have been accomplished or so would be wrong.

As the government, in accordance with the end result, we were obliged to take the most optimum stand and we have done that. We are not a journalist, a columnist who may write something one day and totally different thing the other day. If you look at the recent papers you would see that the banner headlines of even the same papers defended different positions on the same issue. You will see same columnists writing differently. But, people in administration think and devise policies and, if eventually those policies are adopted, they go ahead in that direction. If those policies were adopted in a different form, that they make evaluations in accordance with that approved form and proceed in conformity of that approved version.

TDN – In the U.S. there are complaints that had Turkey allowed them open the northern front they would have entered Kirkuk and Mosul, not the peshmergas.

GUL – Might be… But, the Turkish Grand National Assembly adopted that decision. In adopting that decision Parliament considered the pros and cons of the issue, found negative aspects more than the positive aspects and thus adopted such a decision. We, of course, as the government explained to Parliament all the alternatives, possibilities and put in front of the deputies in clear terms what might be the developments. We have explained to parliamentarians the issues that we are discussing today, in very clear terms. We have explained them the possibilities. Eventually, that was the Parliament decision and everyone must respect it.

TDN – Well, if Turkey is asked, in view of that Parliament decision, does Turkey have the right to demonstrate its current reaction?

GUL – Of course Turkey has the right. What has Turkey done after the Parliament decision? All these issues were covered in the memorandum of understanding. Did Turkey abandoned the U.S. or start to follow a policy against the U.S., or has it sided with Iraq? If you look at the region, Turkey has been the country which is in most intense cooperation with the U.S.

TDN – The war is about to end but is it still clear amongst ourselves whether we are in or out the coalition?

GUL – Then you will have to look at the statements of the U.S. and their list of coalition partners. You will see there that Turkey is a member of the coalition. This is not a list that we wrote. In that list, Turkey has a peculiar place.

TDN – That is, we accept to be part of the coalition?

GUL – One of the countries cooperating with the United States is Turkey. The decision of the Parliament to open Turkish airspace to the use of the Americans was an important move. Turkish airspace was not like the airspace of any European countries. Would opening of airspace of entire European countries mean anything if Turkey did not open its airspace? It would not. Therefore, a wider cooperation suggested by government was converted to a tighter cooperation by Parliament. Apart from that, for the past ten years, Turkey has been with the U.S. regarding the Iraq policy. Northern Watch was conducted from Turkish territory. Or Americans must know well the contributions of Turkey.

But, they must understand also the reflection of the anti-war sentiment of over 95 percent of the Turks to Parliament. Turks did not want Turkey’s active participation in the war.

TDN – An ad-hoc committee was to be established for coordination between Turkey, U.S. and the Kurds. This committee could not be established. Does the failure of the establishment of that committee play a role in the developments in Kirkuk? Was not that committee designed to look after such incidents?

GUL – That committee was to discuss and coordinate a possible entry of Turkish troops into northern Iraq in view of developments regarding refugees and terrorism.

TDN – Not on the Kirkuk issue?

GUL – No…

TDN – There is an interesting situation at the United Nations Security Council on the Cyprus issue. There is a division among the permanent members. While the U.S. and Britain are supporting a resolution calling for a Cyprus settlement within the framework of the so-called Annan plan, China and Russia have been saying the plan was not accepted by the parties on the island and thus there should not be attribution to it or to any other plan in the Cyprus resolution. This is happening at the council on Cyprus for the first time. How do you evaluate this?

GUL – With the Iraqi situation, the entire international community, all international bodies are divided. First of all the umbrella organization of the international community divided. Then the EU, NATO divided. Neighbors divided… Canada, Mexico and the United States, for example, adopted separate attitudes. Division in Europe has been a very deep one. This division once again surfaced. These are the realities that the world is facing today. The time is to get reorganized. This process has started and now many are saying "Whatever has happened, happened, now let’s reorganize." There is an intense effort to that end.

TDN – Although the entire world and all international bodies were divided in the wake of the war on Iraq, what is interesting is that on the issue of Cyprus, for the first time, permanent members of the Security Council have adopted different positions…

GUL – Not only the Turkish Cypriot side, but Greek Cypriots also rejected the document presented by the U.N. secretary-general. The Turkish Cypriot side expressed clearly their opposition to the plan, while the Greek Cypriot side presented even a longer list of objections. But, because the Turkish Cypriot side declared its opposition, the blame of the failure of the plan was placed on Turkish Cypriots.

This plan was not found acceptable by either side on the island and it has to be seen that the plan needed to be improved so that it could form the basis of talks. The U.N. has realized as well that this plan was unacceptable by either side. In the period ahead, there will be work on this document.

TDN – At the Belgrade meeting Turkey proposed a five-party conference scheme for a settlement on Cyprus — the two parties on Cyprus and three guarantor powers Turkey, Greece and Britain. Greece rejected this offer. Now, will Turkey support the U.N. framework for a Cyprus settlement, or continue suggesting this five-party scheme?

GUL- The five-party mechanism could not be established at this point. We made that suggestion in demonstration of our goodwill to use every possible platform and means for a Cyprus resolution. We are of the opinion that all means must be tested. We made the proposal in that framework. But, we are committed to the U.N. framework also.

TDN – After the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power, we have started hearing from Western diplomats and politicians that they have started hearing a "different voice" from Ankara. They were saying for the first time a Turkish government was "sincerely" talking about a Cyprus settlement, Turkey’s European Union membership, full integration with the West. However, in recent times we have started hearing different voices complaining that the AKP has accommodated itself with the "established system" in Turkey. Has there been such a transformation in Turkey, are they misunderstanding Turkey now or were they misunderstanding you before?

GUL – You have used the word transformation. There is a difference between transformation and revolution. Transformation is continuing. If we were expected to make sudden moves and changes without establishing consensus in the country, that would lead to discord, and that was wrong. But, there is no hesitation in our direction and determination. Therefore, we shall take necessary risks, shall not hesitate in expressing our political will when required, but in doing so, obviously, we shall take care of the sensitivities of a transition period.

If we are to talking on Cyprus, we are clear on that: We want a settlement.

If we are talking of Turkey’s future, we want to place Turkey’s EU membership in the EU on a path of no return. We want that not because of the EU, but because the Turkish nation deserves this. We consider this a persistent and continuous process. Our approach is not one to get prepared for a meeting and shelve everything once the meeting was over, starting to act again when a new meeting was approaching. This, for us, is a continuous process. Even while most important developments are unfolding, we are progressing on this process.

For example, while we have the Iraqi crisis, we have legislated through Parliament two important democratization packages. Not only we are saying this, the Europeans as well are acknowledging this fact. Now, we are in the process of legislating a third democratization package. It will soon be dispatched to Parliament.

It has become a fashion to make such accusations, such criticisms against ourselves.

TDN – But you have taken to the fore Islamic reflexes in the recent period…

GUL – Like what?

TDN – Regarding Iraq, for example?

GUL – Was the Republican People’s Party acting with Islamic motives? Was the president acting with Islamic motives? There is a very wide division in Turkey over the issue. If you recall, when the second authorization motion was being debated in Parliament, the government undertook its responsibility, undertook the requirements of real politics, prepared the motion and dispatched it to Parliament.

On an important issue over which there was division in the U.N., EU, NATO, all institutions, and against which there was strong public opposition, we knew that we would face some difficulties in Parliament. We warned our counterparts of this.

Just look at Britain, a country that has an interest in the war or which has joined the war because of its interests, Prime Minister Tony Blair managed to get parliamentary approval only with the support of the opposition. Ministers quit from his Cabinet.

Now, how can one forget all this and focus only on Turkey? Then evaluations would be incomplete. Of course the grassroots of our party played a role, the opposition to war by 90 plus percent of Turks played a role. It was inevitable that all those factors would be reflected in the outcome of Parliament decision.

TDN – Were you considering an Iraq war inevitable with or without a northern front?

GUL – Back in June, I said once the U.S. starts troop deployment in the region there won’t be a return and war would become inevitable with or without Turkey allowing the northern front.

I always believed that only Saddam Hussein could prevent the war. I sent messages, invited top Iraqi officials to Ankara and explained to them in clear terms what would be the outcome and told them that what’s happening now would take place.

TDN – Did you explain all this to your parliamentarians also?

GUL – I explained in detail to our parliamentarians. I explained it three times to the opposition party and Parliament eventually decided. I explained to CHP leader Baykal in more detail than I explained to our deputies. Eventually, Parliament made its decision and tightened Turkey’s contribution. That was not what the government wanted, but the Parliament decision must be respected. I fully respect the decision of Parliament.

TDN – Thank you.